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time is not linear in all dimensionsFrom: Steven
Subject: Philosophy
Date/Time 2009-10-10 23:09:12
Remote IP: 76.251.213.191
Message>>>TRUE FALSE
>>>you shouild examine your own dichotomies
>>>before placing them on me.
By the rules of simple mathematical logic,
if you construct an argument consisting of
propositions containing implications
such "if . . ., then . . ."; or absolute
statements such as "can not" etc.,
then such implications by necessity fall
under the rules of true/false logic.
Argue with me on tenets of spirituality
and we can have a fun debate. Argue
with me about mathematics and you will lose. :)
>>>I have read Novak's book but have long since
>>>stopped trying to apply it exactly to the Daoist model.
Good. As you yourself pointed out, there are some
useful concepts, but they don't translate A for B
into the Daoist picture.
>>>I also had no intention of applying linear time
>>>to the collective self - where did that come from
>>>in your thinking?
But you do it all the time!
EXAMPLES:
"The LING (unified personal shen) responds to situations,
and also influences situations that ocur"
This implies a linear structure of time. Situation happens,
then LING responds. Or LING does something, then situation
here is influenced. This is a cause-effect structure.
This; then that. Linear.
"are still happening spontaneously"
This implies not happening in the past or future,
but only in the now. This is a fixed referent to a moment
in our linear time. "Spontaneous" has no intrinsic meaning
outside of linear time.
>>>I think you are talking about the LING, the unified
>>>personal shen that are just over the vibrational gap
>>>into the pre-natal.
No, I'm not talking about the pre-natal.
I discussed this earlier.
But rather than continuously correcting every instance
of this in what you wrote afterward, I'll just pretend
it has already been corrected for efficiency.
>>>While I am talking about the larger COLLECTIVE IMPERSONAL
>>>forces of nature, the pure virtue elementals, planetary soul
>>>archetypes and the oversouls of the stellar mind...they
>>>CANNOT SEE into the slower vibration of the material plane,
>>>which is why we function here with the IMPRESSION of
>>>separation (I am aware that it is not full separation -
>>>nothing is fully separated).
I agree with this analysis.
Of course, the collective impersonal forces are
not what I'm talking about, as you yourself realized.
>>>I am still of the opinion that these learning events,
>>>even though they are multi-dimensional, are still
>>>happening spontaneously, and do not have pre-planned
>>>outcomes (although the LING has a big say in what happens),
>>>because of the need for learning from the interactions.
>>>If the ever-present consciousness of our collective (
>>>non-personal) self is running the show, and knows what
>>>will happen at all times then what is the point of having
>>>a learning experience?
Because the actual physical participation provides insight
that the mere theoretical understanding can not provide. This
is in the tennis analogy I gave earlier. I can have a
complete theoretical understanding of the game, but if I
actually get on the court and play I'll understand it in
a newer and a deeper way. THIS REMAINS TRUE regardless of
whether or not I happen to be psychic/omniscient and
happen to know the games' outcome. Knowing the games'
outcome and what actually transpires during the game
does not diminish the experience of playing.
You seem to be arguing that if you already know how the
game goes, then there is no value in playing. I.E. Try
telling that to the millions of people playing Sudoku that
they are stupid because you know the end result is
a full tableau of nine digits that is already given
in the back of the book. It is the process of doing it
that is the important thing. For one, it is simple pleasure
and fun; for two, it provides growth in the sense of
sharpened reasoning.
The fact that the outcome is pre-planned is IRRELEVANT.
>>>If all the motions are pre-planned but we are just
>>>running through them in physicality so that the LING
>>>(or the higher collective self for that matter)can
>>>experience it, the "newness" of only the physical
>>>is not enough, it is a dead interaction without the
>>>combination of spontaneous learning through the
>>>whole spectrum.
This is purely your opinion of course.
I don't see it as being dead in any way,
as I've explained before. Aside from everything I've
written above as in the tennis and the Sudoku examples,
the lower self does not know that its "choices"
fall matter-of-factly in lock-step with the script
already written--and even if it did, it does not
change the experience. YOU already made the choices,
now it is just a matter of the lower self understanding
them and experiencing them first-hand.
I state again: The lower self is just the physical
projection into linear time of the larger self.
OK, I just had an "a-ha" moment. I think
I have an analogy that will explain the situation better.
Analogy:
Suppose you go back in time and meet up with an
earlier version of yourself. Keeping your identity
secret via some kind of disguise you go up to
this earlier version of yourself. You tell this
earlier version of yourself that you know exactly
what it is going to do and what choices it will
make. This version of you says "really? did you
know I was going to do this?", and then
your "earlier you" jumps up and down on the floor
ten times. To which--you in disguise--reply
"of course I did; you are me, and I know
I did that/you were going to do that" To which
the earlier version of you--to prove it has
free will--tries to do different random spontaneous
actions to demonstrate that it makes it own choices.
You (in disguise), start laughing, and point
out that you knew it would do that, and point out a
diary record in which you had recorded these
activities with stunning accuracy. Now suppose you
leave this earlier point in time. Should the
earlier version of you--assuming it was convinced
you were the real deal--just give up nihilistically
and decide to not do anything at all? Of course, not.
But supposing the earlier you had decided to give up,
then in the same way that would have likewise been
recorded in the diary as well.
The larger self/smaller self dynamic is like this.
In fact, the analogy may not be too far from the truth
because the larger self is not in linear time. So
what constitutes "now" for the lower self, is
for the larger self considered "already done",
"doing", and "yet to be done" all in the same "instant".
But as I said, this fact should not matter to the
lower self, because it can't see beyond the now and
everything it experiences seems to be completely
original and originating from itself. The underlying
truth is really irrelevant from its viewpoint.
This is what I mean by the choices having already been
made, and all that is left to do is to understand them
and grow from them.
The "growing" is obvious for the lower self, as it
experiences things "new" in an ever-developing sense.
The "growing" for the larger self is the transmission
it is receiving/already received/will yet to receive
from the physical experience--which extends and deepens
the theoretical knowledge it already has.
S
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