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false dichotomy; not a linear time issueFrom: Steven
Subject: Philosophy
Date/Time 2009-10-10 13:11:37
Remote IP: 76.251.213.191
Message>>>I am not bothered by the idea that there
>>>is no individual free will, I just don’t
>>>agree with it. I think that the reason we
>>>are manifested here is to explore individual
>>>free will and how our collective self can
>>>learn from our interactions in an unplanned way.
I think you are still stuck in a false dichotomy.
Your logic goes like this. If option A were not true,
then we'd have option B which I don't agree with and is
ultimately inherently wrong, so therefore of course
option A is true. This is false logic. If option B
is not true, this does not imply A if other options exist.
>>>If our (individual) life process is pre-planned
>>>by our collective self, then it would not be a process.
False.
For one, I don't like the term "collective self", because
this implies that the larger self I've been discussing is
just a cute way of saying "collective". This is not the case.
The "larger-you" I'm referring to is still mostly individualized.
For two, the idea that something pre-planned is not
able to be processual, is likewise false. A running treadmill
pre-plans your walking, but nonetheless if you get on the thing
you are going through the process of exercise. Moreover, the
process of being on the thing changes you. By "you" I
mean both the lower-you, who is directly being altered in the
physical realm, AND the larger-you that gets the
transmission of the physical experience.
>>>If our life process is being run spontaneously
>>>by the collective self and the individual self
>>>is learning from it, it is a one-way process,
>>>the individual is acting out orders and the
>>>collective is not learning anything in return.
False. The larger-you gets a direct transmission of
the actual physical experience of the theoretical
knowledge it has. This deepens and enriches the
"current" understanding that the larger-you has.
I thought I said this earlier.
>>>Individual free will (in my opinion) is a combination
>>>of collective “self-awareness” (that comes from
>>>the collective/ the One), and individuality
>>>(the qualities of the five shen) –
Now I see why you are confused and why your mind
is giving you a false dichotomy. It appears to me
that you have completely accepted as fact
Peter Novak's Binary Soul Doctrine,
and are trying to apply it across the board.
The lower self may *indeed* be a binary soul model
as presented by Novak consisting of two components:
a self-aware half, and a personal/dreaming half
[speaking fast and loose; I'm familiar with the model,
but I don't want to go on for two pages in order to
be precise].
In fact, I personally agree with a version
of it FOR THE LOWER PHYSICAL SELF when it is run
through a Daoist lens.
HOWEVER, *regardless* of what constitutes the
lower physical self, this does not describe the constitution
of the higher larger version of self that I'm referring to.
I'm speaking of something on a different vibrational level.
It is *not* just a mirror image of the "self-aware,
personality-less half" in the binary soul doctrine.
The larger self that is organizing the script has
a muted personality and some kind of subtle unified shen
presence.
In other words, feel free to apply the binary soul
doctrine to the lower-you, but not to the larger-you.
The larger-you is a completely different animal.
Even if you weren't applying the binary soul doctrine
globally, I'm betting it is the source of your binary
thinking, or at least why you seem to only acknowledge
two choices. Even in yin-yang theory, there is a
central "third" yuan core that lies between the two extremes.
>>>there is a gap in vibrational frequency between the
>>>collective and the individual that allows us to
>>>function with an “individual will”, and which gives
>>>us the impression of (separated) conscious awareness
>>>here. Of course, the minute you start going into the
>>>shen, elementals, soul forces, oversouls and causal
>>>chaos-unity, you see that we are a collective.
>>>Most people remain unaware of the collective
>>>consciousness because of its more impersonal nature.
So you admit that independence is just an illusion?
Then you are halfway to seeing what I'm talking about.
WITH BLINDERS UP, *of course* everything we are doing down
here is free will. We are making choices after all.
BUT DROPPING THE BLINDERS OF CONFUSION, we see that the
choices we A PRIORI considered to be free independent
choices were in fact already chosen *for* "us" (i.e.
the lower self) by the larger-self. The larger-self
is STILL you (hence it is free will on a different level),
BUT is NOT operating in linear time.
Operating outside of linear time,
the larger-you has already made the choices
(the choices being the "free will", but on the larger-you level).
Then the choices that we appear to be making are simply
the ones already pre-written (by "ourselves").
In other words, you've already made the choice.
Now you just have to understand the choice you already made.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that when you go
up the vibrational ladder that things that exist there
still are subject to the same linear time flow that we have here.
In the "now", our higher-you has extent into both our
past and our future. That's how it knows what you are
going to do, before you do it. But this is no
surprise as the lower-you is just the physical projection
of higher-you into linear time. And I mean the most
literal version of the word "projection" here.
Steven
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