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some more thoughtsFrom: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2007-10-25 02:29:08
Remote IP: 154.20.24.74
MessageHello Nnonnth,
Thanks for your in-depth thoughts on the issue, I really am being honest in that I still do not understand what you mean when you say "life" and "essence". Cleary was basically a buddhist and relied heavily on that even when translating daoist texts; that does not discount his skill as a translator, only that I am not familiar with the terms. If you talk in terms of jing-qi-shen transformation, then it makes more sense to me. I would see buddhist practice as focused mainly on qi, shen and mental body cultivation, and not transforming the jing as much (except for tibetan practices), but really I am not all that familiar with most buddhist practice other than reading some sutras and hearing about vipassana meditation.
"life" is a very general term, and essence can mean either jing or qi depending on the translator.
>>"'Working with elemental forces' is cultivating life; 'practicing realization' is cultivating essence. Substitute those into my original post and I believe I answered all of your other questions."
this makes a little more sense.
>>"Answered in my original post. The answer is it depends on the free will of the practitioner. If you reach a certain stage you *choose* to come back and resolve more things, or you *choose* not to return but to dissolve yourself permanently. Until you have reached the stage where you can *choose* either one the whole conversation is entirely premature!"
Being at the stage of choosing to come back or not seems to be a high level of cultivation of free will. I was referring to the fragmented shen reorganizing themselves and coming back to physicality in a different configuration (different person) to try and resolve their issues again because it couldn't be done before.
>>"Yes; my point was that this can occur from still sitting practices. Also that it does not *always* occur from those practices. Those practices which only 'cultivate essence' and do not concern themselves with 'cultivating life', do not try to dissolve these differences at jing level. Those practices which *begin with* cultivating essence may in the end do precisely that and (however much I dislike his very negative attitude towards practices like the ones on this site) Huai-Chin Nan's practices are the proof of it. I repeat, *as I already pointed out in my other post which answers you completely*, *primarily* cultivating essence does not mean that you do not *come* to cultivate life, nor vice versa. When it comes to mastery both schools are one. The entire point of what I said is that (as Dolphin mentioned) you are both right. The argument is tired; I am not convinced there was ever anything in it."
My point here is that I am unsure and would question whether realization practices do transform jing at a deep level. Whether both schools achieve mastery, I guess is also a question left up to those people who do actually achieve mastery from either school.
>>"... and my point is that, since they cannot at all *affect* how you choose to *use* this free will, it makes absolutely no difference. What someone else says about what is valid is entirely irrelevant if you know what you are doing is correct for you. Even Buddha said, ignore me if you think I'm wrong."
True
:)
>>"It is quite clear to me that those who choose to try and convince others they are 'practicing wrongly' are doing so out of ego alone - presuming that those others are actually happy in their practice which you obviously are. Naturally different schools may have blind spots; individuals may succumb to self-delusion; difficulties may creep in that need resolution by reference to an outside point of view. That's why we all talk like this! All spiritual paths can help one another. But the idea that there is something *fundamentally wrong* with the whole *concept behind an entire spiritual path* is blatant rubbish of the first order. Anyone who says otherwise is barking mad! :) :) :) That is not helping one another, it is correcting one another when no correction is needed."
Generally someone who practices any kind of spirituality ("practicing virtue") I think is positive except if they are of the missionary sort, or are trying to deny particular aspects of existence like physicality as being more or less than "our true nature", it really includes both and everything inbetween. Realizing that there is a distance between "our true nature" and pure physical existance does not cause a split in my view, it just accepts the distance AND proposes a solution. Some people don't need to "do the steps" of alchemy to complete their lives here, yet I believe that alchemy does accelerate the process and has the potential take things a few steps further than if someone just seeks physical completion. "going with the flow" seems to me to be somewhat different than "becoming the process of change" by acknowledging and embodying it.
Discussion is just more fire under the pot!
:)
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