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Denty RespondsFrom: HCWB
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-10-08 23:19:05
Remote IP: 24.20.254.218
Message
MICHAEL: You still want be Mr. Nice Guy, even as you pass on a litany of speculative judgements about others while claiming not to. And you repeatedly pass yourself off as an authority, when you have NO CREDENTIALS established whatsoever other than your proclamations about your personal search.
The energy created from the Healing Dao practices are largely sensory in nature. Subjectively speaking, practitioners may experience all kinds of energy, colors and buzzing. Point of fact, you can experience any of these things by taking drugs.
First of all, let's not generalize about 'Healing Dao . You did not study any of the basics, fusion, healing love, or iron shirt with me - because I wasn't teaching those at Big Indian. Like many students, perhaps you came into the Lesser unprepared and didn't get it. Perhaps it appeared inconsistent to you because you didn't have a previous five shen training consistent with my class.
ME: Okay, I have received a few emails asking for a response; fine: You have no Iron shirt Michael; Ron was very clear on this and often joked about it. No one in the Healing Dao that I have ever met, has ever been willing to demonstrate any abilities like what I have seen in China. Why? I even asked Chia to show me some qi and he refused, telling me I needed to work with the qi he was filling the room with? Ron said that, while you were perhaps on to something intellectually, you basically haven’t mastered the basics yet. Having said that, I will admit that you are very creative and you’re theories are captivating. Does this mean anyone is going to develop their immortal fetus and achieve the ability to project their yang shen with these creative interpretations? No, a thousand times no.
Maybe I’m just not sensitive enough, but I felt nothing during your seminars or Chia’s. Other people were having all kinds of qi awakening and experiencing enlightenment; who can argue with such things. If they got something out of it and felt there lives transformed, why should I argue. People were seeing spirits and out of body experiences. While these are neeto stuff, they are all quite subjective and impossible to verify. Is it perhaps possible that some of these individuals, under the placebo like effects of the group dynamic, said and did things to fuel there own desire to have these experiences? Ron thought so and he told me most of this stuff was just qigong theater. Why would he lie?
As for the Fusion that being taught, I was told by someone in the Healing Dao that I trust that these practices were taken from a book and largely a creation.
MICHAEL: Second of all, let's not generalize YOUR experience of the first One Cloud formula onto others who have restored their health, found inner peace, and numerous other benefits. That formula is designed to harmonize post-natal chi. Your judgement is that no one is getting enlightened from it, when it is just designed to a be a foundation. It delivers to many what is promised - you simply wanted some thing different.
Me: Fair enough. Now it just a basic practice and no longer a powerful alchemical method. Hmmm... I seem to remember you mentioning enlightenment like it was some kind of side effect and no big deal, ‘Really just subjective in nature.’
As for the miracle cures, people get cured of cancer by watching comedy shows on TV. It’s called positive thinking. I’m not an expert and I haven’t seen the evidence you are speaking of, but I do know that some of the examples you shared about healing that occurred from the practices were made up. One student who had recovered from full blown aids was very upset that you wrote about his recovery without permission, claiming it was due to all th Healing Dao practices. Turns out he says he wasn’t practice the HT methods at the time and thought you were really overstepping your boundaries.
This is in line with what Ron told me on many occasions. He said that his practice was about helping people die a little more comfortably and with a sense that they were going on, to a new mystery. I do think Ron had some ability to guide peoples consciousness in subtle way, but he was very clear that the HT practices were not miracle cures.
ME: My experience with Healing Dao was my experience. All of the senior instructors I've met and studied under were still searching for more effective methods and were very open about this with me.
MICHAEL: Sounds exactly like David Shen and anyone interested in growing....a meaningless point. The other reality is that neidan requires deep long term commitment which not all healing Dao instructors were willing to put into it. Many of these instructors were exposed to David Shen, yet few chose to follow him.
ME: How is this a defense of the obvious fact that most the Healing Dao instructors I met told me point blank that they were still looking for high level practices and didn’t feel the Healing Dao System represented anything more than the most basic practices. Many of them admitted to me that they didn’t even practice most of the stuff. Ron said he just did Tai Chi and qigong. Renee, perhaps one of the few to achieve some skills, studied traditional Chinese tai chi and kungfu and said he never messed with any of the Healing Dao formulas beyond the basics.
ME: The idea that, because Kan and Li and the other formulas have been written about in various texts, proves they are authentic is just silly.
MICHAEL: The point is not to try to prove authenticity, which can only be established by each adept that develops the skill to make them work. The point was to demonstrate how fraudulent your claim was that Mantak Chia made them up. This is not character assassination of you, Sean - it is pointing out what you said is blatantly false and is a character assassination of Chia. The more these falsities accrue, your claimed expertise fades. I recommend in the future you stick to selling what works for you.
ME: this may be your view, but it most certainly is not mine. If Chia has mastered these formulas, why is he still searching? Why can’t he demonstrate any kind of objective qigong skill? If he has access to a complete system, why do so many so close to him say differently? Any reasonable person would ask these questions.
The truth is, while Chia is still fumbling around in the darkroom with his night vision goggles, dozens of David’s students have achieved the ability to perceive the clear light in a few years of study.
ME: As you yourself told me, Chia was never actually trained in these methods; and what is taught today is basically a good guess at best.
MICHAEL: This is another blatantly false distortion, that let me know that either your ability to listen or your memory is weak, or both. What I said is exactly what I've clarified previously on this forum: Chia told me he was trained experientially up through the Greater Kan & Li, and given the description on the rest. He certainly had a connection to One Cloud's lineage, and those beings were clearly pushing his work in the West.
ME: Despite your claim, which I really doubt based on Chia’s track record of “borrowing from other systems” and trying to pass it off as his own teaching, something tells be otherwise.
ME: David left the Healing Dao because you and Chia started teaching practices he taught you without permission; surprise.
MICHAEL: That is pure B.S. to include me in their struggle. David's falling out was with Mantak Chia over numerous battles they had at Tao Garden, which led to his selling his condo there.
ME: way to back up your teacher. I’m sure he appreciates your loyalty. Interestingly, Mantak was quite interested to know David’s techniques regarding the sexual practices. Apparently the ones Chia teaches were invented also.
ME: And after decades of practice Mantak himself has not achieved a meaningful level of achievement that would warrant the title of master in any line of the Dao that I know.
MICHAEL: Another judgement by Master Sean. One of many reasons why I avoid the Master Game. Chia has hundreds of grateful students that would judge otherwise. Even traditionally, master-student is a relationship, not an objective measurable quantity to be determined by others. A more correct statement would be to say, 'Chia is not my master, based on what I need from a Master’.
ME: actually my observation is based on common sense and very strong evidence from people I trust. A master in my book is someone who has mastered what they teach. Chia is not that by his own admissions.
MICHAEL: I have my differences with Chia, but his energy is certainly very powerful when he focuses it. If anything, he is victim of his ambition to use his power to grow something worthwhile too far too fast. That stretched him thin, and led to problems. His function in building the large community you profited handsomely from is a kind of mastery you will not commonly find in China or Thailand. There are many kinds of mastery. I am personally deeply grateful to Chia and have let go my anger at what I perceive were his mistakes. It is up to each of us to shape the reality we want to grow rather than getting stuck on other's failures.
ME: well put. I not surprised you have moved on. Chia is just an average guy trying to make a buck and, if he helps a few people on the way, great. In China the word Master still means something. But many have lost the power to even dream about something so magical. It’s sad really. I don’t, as you have suggested, condemn people who aren’t interested in such things, after all life in magical enough with them if you can see past your own self centered pride.
ME: Perhaps there is something to the methods you teach, that's just not my experience.
MICHAEL: Finally a possible admission that you haven't really studied with me enough to make the earlier judgements you passed about being A money-making scam. .
ME: Not really; I was just trying to be nice.
MICHAEL: Maybe you would benefit from reading the testimonials posted before claiming to know more than the people who write them - benefits that feel just as real to them as the ones you claim to feel with a new teacher in Thailand.
ME: I’ve read them and I’m not going to comment on this any further because it is a basic difference of belief. I’m sure that some are real, but how related they are to any practice beyond personal belief and positive thinking (both powerful forces admittedly) just can’t be shown in any objective way.
MICHAEL: The assumptions I find most questionable and naive in your postings is beliff that David Shen is going to grant you immortality, and that no one in the Healing Tao has achieved it. That exhibiting some particular abilty with chi is the proof of immortality or even enlightenment, since we have nothing else as proof .
ME: David has nothing to do with it. It’s the right technique and the methods to apply the technique passed down by those who have achieved and can demonstrate that achievement, plus my effort. These are things I seeing lacking grossly in the HT system
MICHAEL: What has possibly led you to believe that David Shen is immortal, or what would qualify you to make this judgement about him - or anyone else?
ME: Never said that. David, by his own admission is not a master yet, but he knows people who are and I have met them and experienced their power first hand. You have not.
MICHAEL: If David hasn't achieved immortality after 20 years of hard searching, is that failure by your objective standards?
ME: Yep
MICHAEL: Your final judgement is to assume that I am criticizing you because my dvd empire is threatened . Empire here is of course another judgmental word. Did you really think this through?
ME: Yes, and I’m not the only person who feels this way. There are many.
MICHAEL: Do you really think that I felt financially threatened by the prospect of David's $6,500. basic retreat underming my mission to share with the public what I've learned from qigong and inner alchemy?
ME: Umm... Yes. But don’t worry, I don’t think most people read this forum who take your workshops. Anyway, the cost of David’s basic seminar in Denmark is comparable in cost to your workshops in New York. The Asia training is a condensed training that covers much more material (2-3 years worth) and the work that the master David will invite provides is an added bonus and helps people progress faster. Oh and one more thing, the teaching a real living transmission that hasn’t changed in thousands of years and is the foundation of hundreds of living masters who can demonstrate there qi which is like sweet, raw electricity. This energy is one percent of what they can do and it feels like your holding on to one of those electric fences on the farm were I spent a few summers in my youth. It truly a miracle and people who have been doing this stuff for decades walk away transformed and humbled.
MICHAEL: Sean, there are plenty of family or closely held lineage, traditional teachers of various qi arts in China that will work only one on one with students.
ME: Yes, to bad you don’t know any of them.
MICHAEL: Is this the future model of transmission likely to succeed in the West? There are enormous financial and cultural-linguistic hurdles to be overcome for westerners seeking that kind of relationship.
As these Chinese teachers take on more westerners, their model will be forced to shift to accommodate what is needed by their students. I think its great those opportunities exist for the few willing to pursue them. But its not the future of qigong and neidan in the West.
ME: It’s the Westerners who will need to change in order to learn anything of value. The Chinese despise this attitude; it’s a big reason most don’t let Westerners in there world.
MICHAEL: Enjoy your journey to living Without Judgement -
its a hard path, I'm still a neophyte myself :). Michael
ME: Give me a break. We all make judgements everyday; it’s a part of life. The trick, as my Dzogchen teacher is fond of saying, is to distinguish between shit and medicine. If you feel you path is authentic and helpful, fine. I respect that, but don’t try and paint me as some kind simple meddler who hasn’t got a clue what he’s doing. I have very good reasons for my opinions and I suspect I’m not the only one.
As for the requests to, “Just all get along.” That’s fine, but a good debate is healthy too. Nothing wrong with it and I respect the fact that Michael has strong opinions; I just disagree with most of them.
Sincerely, Sean
- Denty Responds: (974) HCWB (15) - - 2006-10-08 11:19 pm
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